Carbon or wood to be or not to be that is the question

[hazard]

I make no appologies but I do favour Carbons.

Have made and have a couple of sets now of Wood arrows, but I just dont feel the love.

Believing I should endeavour for the time being to make more and strive to learn and appreciate this more natural side of Archery, soul searching you could call it.

I know when I have made a mistake the carbon tells you but the roulette with timbers always leaves you guessing when it comes to performance.

All the most passionate traditional die hards fail to deliver a strong argument as to why they are better, just that using carbons crosses some sacred border and again the argument doesnt deliver the essence to inspire.

It is a natural material and prone to more irregularity, thus presenting the fundamental issue I have with woods.

They are by far more maintenance and dont last as well under normal shooting conditions.

Yeah I have heard many one eyed trads telling me how their sets last for ages or I am ill informed and a whole swag of justifications but I usually find out over time their arguments have too many holes in them to take them seriously.

I am willing go that extra mile but would like something a little more tangable than "Its just traditional"

Dont get me wrong but the beauty, and the fairytail romance of the timber shaft is quite strong and even the smell of a P.O.C shaft is something quite sacred and almost erotic.

I shoot off the shelf with both a Recurve and a Longbow I encourage any and all to go the traditional road and embrace the Instinctive side of the 'ART" but if I am to make that special shot on a hunt, why should I compromise that little bit of accuracy for a misguided whim "a principal without substance"?a fairytail ideal that is fundamentally floored.

What better place to ask but on a Traditional Site just like this?

So I would ask, what is this golden reason, that certain something I am missing?

This will probably spark a few fired with the passionate ones but it is the passion I am looking for as just the argument alone hasn't delivered the essence.

Hazard

[Flatliner]

Hey Hazard, as you have probabley guessed I'm a wood mainiac, but I'm with you, I love my carbons, I've got some nice woods but as you say you never know if it's you or the arrow .

Rob.

[Nephew]

I use woods mainly because, well...have you ever tried hunting with Stickbow and Pinky while your carrying carbons?

[GrahameA]

Morning All

I am ill informed .... What better place to ask but on a Traditional Site just like this?
So I would ask, what is this golden reason, that certain something I am missing?

1. You will probably find it a tad difficult to make a Carbon shaft whilst sitting at your average workbench.

2. If you make a fair few wood arrows you can may make nicely matched sets that fly very similar.

The best reason of all ..... You are using Arrows that you made yourself and and just like using a bow you made yourself it has its own intrinsic satisfaction ..... plus it is a statement to the world of you and the time, patience and effort that you are able to bring to the making of things. Just like making Dovetail Joints - why do them, well because I can and most of the people I know cannot.

[Jeffro]

You must have a lot of time on your hands Grahame.

1. You will probably find it a tad difficult to make a Carbon shaft whilst sitting at your average workbench.

You will find it a "tad difficult" producing dacron,dynaflight or techniglue and marine varnish on your average work bench too, I mean where do you want to draw the line?You will have trouble making nocks,points on one aswell.
Ive had these discussions before and have made several hundred wood arrows over my time.

I choose carbon now because they all weigh and spine identical and they are much tougher.They fly perfect and are easier to make.

2. If you make a fair few wood arrows you can may make nicely matched sets that fly very similar.

With all the fiddling around you need to do to get your arrows to only fly "very similar" well for me it is simply not good enough.Aswell as given that they break a lot easier I will stick to making only a dozen that all fly the same.

Im sure that some people absulutely love the whole experience and I can understand that.It is satisfying I know but so is making up your carbon arrows .
You still get to choose the colors and glue them all on.You can still crest them and they just work.

[Gringa Bows]

Here we go again .........i say use what you want but i'll stick my woods

[TomMcDonald]

Jeffies don't come in carbon ey Rod?

[kerrille]

i find when hand planing a shaft and then seeing that it dosnt work out after 30 or 40 min of hard work i turn them into carbons

...nev...

[Gringa Bows]

No Tom,just spethle wood

[kimall]

I like the crafting part of the woods but like the shooting of the carbons.What I have found regarding the flight is that IF the woods are prop made from quality timber and looked after AND your release is spot on then they fly as good as a carbon with high FOC (almost).A carbon is def more forgiving in a poor release they just correct themselves so fast.I also love that I can have one set of arrows that I can practice with and then just screw out the field tips and screw in a matching b/head and they fly the same,easy.
What I dont like is the division the shaft material makes in trad archery as there is just no need for it.
I don't tell people not to shoot woods because carbons are better so I should be allowed to shoot them without the negativity that surrounds them.I don't mind a bit of friendly banter but the whole you cant hunt with me is childish and stupid.The rules and regs at shoots is another much more complex issue it seems but I do think that as the older generation leaves the sport the carbons will take over one day.These are just my thoughts and I don't anyone else to change their way of thinking to be the same as mine.
Cheers KIM

[TomMcDonald]

No Tom,just spethle wood

I don't wanna know.

[hazard]

Graham, yes I did have satisfaction making my arrows the same as I would making fly fishing flies, But my flies catch fish and if my group wanders unexplainedly as soon as I use timbers it does take the edge off the satisfaction a tad. This is where i am struggling with the philosophy.

Jeffro is right though, you must far more time available to you so spend on these projects, and being time poor is the bane of my life. 40 mins to an hour and carbons are cut wrapped fletched and tips glued on! now thats satisfying and I didn't have to match 1 single shaft.

Hazard

[muntries]

Dont get me wrong but the beauty, and the fairytail romance of the timber shaft is quite strong and even the smell of a P.O.C shaft is something quite sacred and almost erotic.

Hazard, just to clear something up here, did you mean erotic or exotic? I'm not getting the erotic, arrows and erotic just sounds painful.

I do like my carbons too, but I'm thinking of making up a set of woods just to shoot out on the range as something nice and fancy that will look nice with my bow. I suppose those who shoot compound could say the same about the longbow or recurve, I think sometimes it's nice to be challenged and it's also that touch of beauty too that carbons or compounds just do not have.

[Stickbow Hunter]

There have been some interesting points raised but before I make comment on them let me say I don't care if people want to shoot alloy or carbon arras; it's their choice. I personally don't like them in the same way as I don't like all these modern bows with metal risers; to me they are just cold and lacking any kind of character - ugly things. Metal riser bows are nothing new and the old ones were just as ugly IMO.

I will say though that I did have nothing but distain for the early carbon arras from a strictly safety point of view because when they shattered the injuries to the archers in many cases were horrific with some enduring months of operations, pain and suffering all because the fine strands of carbon that disintegrated through the archer's arms and hands were pretty much undetectable. I hated the things with a passion for this reason.

I believe however that this is no longer a reason to dislike them as the manufacturing processes have changed and they will no longer disintegrate like the earlier ones did. From viewing the ones my son shoots out of his machine they certainly are now made differently and are extremely tough.

Now, on the subject of wood arras; here's a quote from an article I wrote for a Bowhunting mag some years ago now.

"Wood arrows!!! I just love them, they have character. No two are exactly the same. Each one is an individual, I guess, with it's own special characteristics. This is the case with most things made from a natural resource. No man made arrow material can look or feel like wood, or even come close to it. Contrary to what a lot of people think, I believe that well made wood arrows, matched to the bow that they are being shot out of, will shoot every bit as good as any arrow constructed from man made materials".

I still stand by this statement today.

I'm not saying woods are better than carbons; when it comes to longevity the carbons toughness clearly comes to the fore. However I am one that believes if one of my arras was used to successfully take an animal and it happens to get broken in the process no probs as it has done its job. With my field target arras, if I don't loose them, and they last for months and finally start to loose their spine then again they have done what I have expected of them and I will retire them and gladly replace them with another set. To me this is just a part of shooting a bow and arra.

I know when I have made a mistake the carbon tells you but the roulette with timbers always leaves you guessing when it comes to performance.

Graham, yes I did have satisfaction making my arrows the same as I would making fly fishing flies, But my flies catch fish and if my group wanders unexplainedly as soon as I use timbers it does take the edge off the satisfaction a tad.

I love my carbons, I've got some nice woods but as you say you never know if it's you or the arrow .

With all the fiddling around you need to do to get your arrows to only fly "very similar" well for me it is simply not good enough.

I make matched sets of wood arras for my bows and if my arra doesn't go where it was supposed to then I know I goofed the shot, unless of course the arra flies way off because it had some damage that I didnÃ't detect before shooting it; no different to if I was shooting arras made of any other material. If you aren’t getting consistency when shooting your woods then I would hazard a guess (pun intended ) that they aren’t matched to your bow properly.

It is a natural material and prone to more irregularity, thus presenting the fundamental issue I have with woods.

This to me is the great attraction of wood arras; they are made of natural materials and yes they do have irregularities but with a little care you can make a matched set that are capable of being shot much more accurately then most archers are capable of shooting; certainly much more accurately than I can shoot them which may not be saying much.

but if I am to make that special shot on a hunt, why should I compromise that little bit of accuracy for a misguided whim "a principal without substance"?a fairytail ideal that is fundamentally floored.

I can not disagree with you more over this statement. If you have your wood arra matched to your bow and your shooting style how in the world is there any difference than if you were using a matched carbon arra? It isn't rocket science; if an arra is matched to your bow it is matched, the kind of material it is made from is a mute point.

There simply is no compromising of accuracy just because the arra is made of wood!!!

I use woods mainly because, well...have you ever tried hunting with Stickbow and Pinky while your carrying carbons?

You just decided you preferred the comfort of inside the 4WD with us rather than hangin' on the outside in the dust and wind.

i find when hand planing a shaft and then seeing that it dosnt work out after 30 or 40 min of hard work i turn them into carbons

The rules and regs at shoots is another much more complex issue it seems but I do think that as the older generation leaves the sport the carbons will take over one day.

I certainly hope not Kim. The whole idea of using woods at Trad shoots - or at least it was - is to help keep one whole sector of Trad Archery alive - that is the simple skills of making your own matched set of wood arras. Yeah, it does take a little effort but it is a skill that is already very much lacking with many of todays archers.

To me Trad Archery today is going down the same path as with the Compound shooters - they have a supermarket mentality. They rather buy their success than spend a bit of time and effort in practice and in making things for themselves. Making a lot of your own equipment has always been a big part (a real attraction) of Trad Bowhunting/Archery and it most certainly is for me.

As a Bowhunter the following quotes have always had a lot of meaning for me. The first by the late Kevin Whiting - one of the founders of ABA - he said this:

"A hunter tries the gun, a bow tries the hunter".

The second is by Aldo Leopold from his 1949 book titled " Sand County Almanac":

..... there is value in any experience that exercises those
ethical restraints collectively called 'sportsmanship'. Our
tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do,
and sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation in the use of
these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill
and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things.

I very much agree with these quotes and I tend to view Trad Bowhunting/Archery in light of them. I'd much rather keep Bowhunting/Archery on the harder side than make it easier and easier. Sure, I certainly could make it harder for myself, or much easier; it is a personal choice each one of us gets to make.

So, for me I will continue to use wood arras as I don't see any so called negatives that would make me consider changing. Did I mention that I love using wood arras?

Jeff

[kerrille]

All joking aside i love making arras and have made a dozen hunting arras all spined the same with a 20grn difference in weight hand fletched em and it has taken over a week to do it, then in a matter of mins watch 3 get destroyed in a couple of goats, there was no sadness just joy and elation that something that i made from scratch could fill my freezer,all those arras have long gone doing the job they were meant to do and lots of others have taken their place since but i'll never forget my first home made hunting arras and the satisfaction and the loss of them doing itheir job.

...nev...

[Gilly]

At the end of the day, shoot what you want, I have no right to tell you its wrong or right

Personally I prefer wood, I love the fact that we can make our own arrows, and I am pleased that its another traditional craft being kept alive rather than being buried by some people who just can't be bothered to learn it.

They are all so different in their own way and I like that! But as I said, shoot what YOU want not what others TELL you to!

[longbowinfected]

I am happy with and accept others decisions. I have carbons, alloys and woods.
With effort they are all tuned and spined as well as each other. The mass is the same to the grain. Out to 50 metres they shoot the same. It took three years to make that happen.
Whilst wood is not perfect neither am I and I would personally contribute more to error than the difference in material performance.

This is not about the head but the heart. Woods sing to me off the bow and the feel is different. In a perverse way because it was much more difficult for me to master woods [[not many AA / target shooters like them/use them] at first is why I love them. I guess I like a challenge.

For mine superior results and better groups is more about good technique, great practice and maintaining good form....whilst not forgettin to enjoy yourself.

Kev

[Gilly]

Well said Kev!

[hazard]

Muntries, the man who doesn't like the smell of P.O.C's must be truly lost to all kinds of archery, I just get some bent thrill from the smell of the timber

I am still building more sets to de-sensitise myself to this difficulty, thats what really made pose the question in the first place.


Now were getting somewhere, a man with passion, There have been some strong sentiments put into the responses but Jeff has probably made the most profound statement I have seen!

To me Trad Archery today is going down the same path as with the Compound shooters - they have a supermarket mentality. They rather buy their success than spend a bit of time and effort in practice and in making things for themselves. Making a lot of your own equipment has always been a big part (a real attraction) of Trad Bowhunting/Archery and it most certainly is for me.

I own compounds but havent really used one in quite a while I let my son use it a bit to keep it interesting for him, I choose trad because I feel a compounds are more like shooting fish in a barrel, I was compelled to chalenge myself to Trad because of this and do consider it my own religion in a way.

All said and done I would get the impression I would need to hone my arrow making and shooting style to appreciate a better plane of accuracy

[muntries]

I know what you mean Hazard, was only messin with you and I'm just gonna pull a bundle out now and have a good old smell, hmmm ahhh .

Did not realise there was such an issue with the early carbons, that is certainly enough of a reason to put you off for life.

[Stickbow Hunter]

All said and done I would get the impression I would need to hone my arrow making and shooting style to appreciate a better plane of accuracy

I'd say so mate.

A couple of photos for you muntries.

Carbon Arrow Injury.jpg (49.51 KiB) Viewed 3238 times

Carbon Arrow Injury 2.jpg (53.13 KiB) Viewed 3238 times

[hazard]

Jeff I must say thats not pretty! Though a very good warning of the attention you should still pay to Carbons even if they have advanced in their design, but then there is danger in everything these days, Mobile Phones, preservatives, plastic containers, the list goes on

[Gringa Bows]

Perdy

[Jeffro]

Jeff,that arrow was shot out of a compound bow I believe

[Stickbow Hunter]

Though a very good warning of the attention you should still pay to Carbons even if they have advanced in their design, but then there is danger in everything these days, Mobile Phones, preservatives, plastic containers, the list goes on

Yeah I realize that and wood arras can break also so we should check all our equipment regularly. My concern with the carbon is that I believe it is undetectable so that makes it extremely difficult to get rid of it all from a wound such as shown in the photos above.

So you think the colour of your arras isn't too bold!

Jeff,that arrow was shot out of a compound bow I believe

Yeah I believe it was mate.

Jeff

[Gilly]

Yuk, those pics are nasty!

I wonder if they got all of the carbon out, I have heard that it can stay in your bloodstream and can end up in the brain or heart and cause all sorts of mayhem, not a nice thought!

I'm sticking with wood!

[dartonian]

Hazard,
I really enjoy making and shooting wooden shafts. My current Sitka Spruce arrows come out of my longbow like darts and I have confidence when using them (I only shoot Field/3D these days).

I shoot 3 under and have never been able to comfortably shoot with a mediteranean release... hence in ABA competitions I shoot in the Modern Longbow division... which allows carbons. I bought a dozen Gold Tip Traditionals thinking that if I wanted to be competative then it would probably be the way to go. I find now that I do pretty much all my practice with the carbons which are durable and and as you say, have precision between shafts that wood can't match. But for some reason, if I'm shooting competition, I reach for my woods... I think primarily because I like to compare scores with the guys in the Trad Longbow division knowing that the only reason I'm not there is because of my release.

I think we all have our personal limits. I've shot compounds a lot in the past, but could never bring myself to put sights on a bow. For me, sights just didn't seem to agree with why I got into archery in the first place. At the end of the day, wood, carbon, alloy (I even have a few left over Graphlex shafts from the 80's - a graphite fibreglass composite) it's all a matter of personal preference and what you want to get out of archery...
Cheers,
Paul

[Stickbow Hunter]

(I even have a few left over Graphlex shafts from the 80's - a graphite fibreglass composite)

I remember those Paul - we must be gettin' old.

Jeff

[dartonian]

I remember those Paul - we must be gettin' old.

And some days I feel it too!!! ... Particularly after a couple of days shooting that 57# Huntin Stick of yours that I just can't seem to part with !!!
Cheers
Paul

[UPTHETOP]

A PICTURE SAYS A THOUSAND WORDS.

Cheers Wayno