The Communal Village

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Chase N. Nocks
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The Communal Village

#1 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:58 pm

Moreton in a recent post lamented about the desire and possible never-to-be-realised dream of living on a parcel of land and ekking out a simple, and I'm guessing still productive existence.

I PM'd him with a couple of links that mainly deal with the concept of Village and Communal living in Australia but thought to take the discussion on a wider scale and see what others thought and/or experienced themselves.

What have you seen?

Where?

Does the concept appeal?

How would you structure it?

Would you have a constitution and voting process?

Would participation require adherence to a contract that is goal oriented and include obligations to the village.

What filtering system would you employ.

Here is one at Maleny http://crystalwaters.org.au/?page_id=41 that is an idea that is (from my visit) failing in it's potential for a true village concept because some of the things asked above I think were not planned or not enforced. Some seemed to have moved there to have access to a cheap place in the bush rather than become part of a community.

I hope Glenn Newell will pop in with some information as he has had some experience with the above community I think and would love to hear further what he thinks.

But I'd love to hear what others think.

Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Roadie
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Re: The Communal Village

#2 Post by Roadie » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:19 pm

Troy, Not for this little Black Duck, the idea might have worked 100 years ago, but everyone nowdays seems too busy. Back in the 60's their were people set up communes,and rebelled against society,and some areas were quite succesful, but in the main, most folded. Besides what is Mine is Mine,and I'm not to keen on sharing what I own around with others in the commune(village), besides you will always get the situation where some one wants to boss Hogg and then there are others who think why should I do this when no one else seems to be pulling their weight. 100/200 years ago yes it may have worked. now 2011,I don't think it will work, as I said Not for this little Black Duck. Cheers Roadie.

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dmm
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Re: The Communal Village

#3 Post by dmm » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:00 pm

It's a romantic notion. 30 years ago, my parents bought into some land with a number of other permaculture enthusiasts.
It didn't work out. Nothing nasty, but they just didn't seem to be able to agree on how to move forward and eventually lost their momentum. The main guy, then moved to Crystal Waters.

Years ago, I remember thinking how great it would be to live near a bunch of internet enthusiasts, because perhaps we could all pool for fast internet connectivity. The Melbourne Wireless group still tries to do this sort of thing today.

And then their is the idea of the gated community, where you can be safe from the types of people you wouldn't want to live near. I don't know if these exist in Australia, or perhaps just the US.

While it's a nice idea that we can share our lives with like minded individuals, for me internet forums are as close as I've ever got :)
David
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Re: The Communal Village

#4 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:11 pm

While I think it is extremely difficult to make these things work, I don't think it is impossible.

Grant talks about "this day and age" and I think that he is right in identifying the gap between the mentalities of one period and the next.

I think there are many hurdles to overcome to make such an idea successful, but the first hurdle needs to be in the mindset of the intended participants.

Honest and Realistic thinking. Any romantic notions must be separated and MURDERED! For instance, I am continually gobsmacked by the amount of people that have this romantic notion of subsistance living, whether hunter gatherer or early agricultural. The delusion of the Noble Savage. And I usually reserve the biggest guffaw for those that imagine those lives as free, independant, bountiful and healthy. Their existance was not devoid of these things but small comunities, especially those of a traditional or subsistance nature have very real obligations and rules placed on their members because survival sepends on it and prosperity is impossible without it.

From the small amount I can glean about the Crystal Waters project (I hope I am not doing it an injustice by mistaking it for another commune in the region.) A large part of the failure of the project lay in freedom being a primary inalienable principle and therefore obligations to the community/village were secondary and wishy-washy voluntary. Obligation free FREEDOM is a luxury that does not even exist in our own modern selfish society, it has completely no place in very small community dynamics...not successful ones anyway.

Grant, I also agree with you at a certain level of what is mine is mine. But that is why such a thing as private property and public property exists both in the modern world and in the prehistoric world. The concept is not automatically a conductor for conflict. There are many thought processes and motivations shared by all Homo Sapians over the last 50,000 years discussed as Behavioral Modernity distinct from the genetically identifiable Homo Sapians that originated 200,000 years ago. People have been people for 50,000 years...from our fur speedo wearing days, to beginnings of agriculture, to the colosseum to orbiting the planet. Swapped at birth no one would be the wiser.

...to be continued..gotta scoot.
Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#5 Post by dmm » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:09 am

Chase N. Nocks wrote: Honest and Realistic thinking. Any romantic notions must be separated and MURDERED! For instance, I am continually gobsmacked by the amount of people that have this romantic notion of subsistance living, whether hunter gatherer or early agricultural. The delusion of the Noble Savage. And I usually reserve the biggest guffaw for those that imagine those lives as free, independant, bountiful and healthy. Their existance was not devoid of these things but small comunities, especially those of a traditional or subsistance nature have very real obligations and rules placed on their members because survival sepends on it and prosperity is impossible without it.
I think the other common unrealistic thinking is that you are going to live in harmony with nature, and have all the modern conveniences. It makes me think of greenies drinking latte under outdoor heaters ruing the greenhouse effect. People eating bacon and eggs, or chicken burgers talking about animal cruelty and all the other Hypocrisies of our modern society.

The Noble savage has existed in Australia. We're taught the Aborigines had it, but to sustain it, they needed access to more land than I can imagine crystal waters has. I think I'm right in saying the Aboriginal male has a shorter than average life expectancy today, but is it longer than it would have been in the 15th Century?
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Re: The Communal Village

#6 Post by GrahameA » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:27 am

Hi Troy.
Chase N. Nocks wrote:I PM'd him with a couple of links that mainly deal with the concept of Village and Communal living in Australia but thought to take the discussion on a wider scale and see what others thought and/or experienced themselves.
There a re a number of issues/topics here.

1. I have nil interest in Communal living.

2. I like Villages - that is living in smaller communities, small pubs and village shops, etc. The issue for me is that we are moving to a Mega-opolis type of city. Soon it will will be one city that stretches from the Sunshine Coast to Northern NSW which I do not like. I would rather see a series of may smaller communities split by rural buffer zones connected by an effective and efficient interurban transport system.

Soapbox put away.
Grahame.
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Re: The Communal Village

#7 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:19 am

Hi Grahame,

I mean communal in the sense of a community ie small village setting as mentioned in your second option.

The idea of living in a common house or doritory does not appeal, in the main, to me either. I can imagine environments where such a structure would have important, if not downright survival, benefits. eg being an extremely cold environment where the burning of multiple individual fires in individual cabins is simply inefficient where a group environment (for certain times of the year) would be a compromise but intelligent way to do thing...the western mentality of ego and individualism would need some adjustment for village life.

People might still have their individual habitat/cabin but share the sleeping quarters for those periods...I am thinking somewhere like Norway in winter where it is extremely cold and usually dark for a large portion of the year. I think the scandinavian countries generally display a higher level of social or community intelligence than Australia or the USA, well Urban Australia and USA anyway.

I would envision a group hall or meeting house as a standard structure to a village environment. This would be used for official and unofficial business by the whole group. Weekly or monthly meetings and voting. Shared meals and parties all of which help the community bond. Notice boards. Co-op strategies. It may also form as the main defensive structure and storage facility, similar to how a castle worked for the surrounding farm folk. Not a genuine concern but it has the potential to be such...in case of werewolves, zombies or post-apocoliptic bikers.

The puke concept of mega cities I am with you 100% on. I used to like Brisbane. There have always been other places I would have preferred to live but if you are going to live in a city then Brisbane was actually one of the best cities you could do it in....then the political and land development grubs got together and said "Hey let's create the Sydney of the North". And so another cesspool is in the making. I am gradually convincing my wife that there are better options but she is a born and bred valley girl and living 1.5km from the CBD is safe and normal.

Cheers
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#8 Post by TomMcDonald » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am

We'll probably be forced to live this way sooner or later. I'm looking forward to it really. :lol:
Tom

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Re: The Communal Village

#9 Post by dawallace45 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:22 pm

Most of the communities of this type I've heard about over the years have failed because they work on the idea that every one has the same say in what is going to happen with out a strong leader to have the final say and it doesn't work , then there are the ones that have a strong leader with a charismatic presence that controls every single thing to the detriment of the individual and that doesn't work either , the simple fact is that I really don't think that most people were meant to live too close together , I know I can't live to close to other people and other people are probably glad of that

It always tends to happen that a handful do the work and the rest bludge off them and most of the bludgers won't even realise they are doing it , too many people with hairy fairy ideas who see living in a commune as sitting around communing with nature , talking about the ills of the world and why doesn't the government do some thing about it in between making up bad poetry and equally bad folk songs while some other bugger digs up the ground to plant fruit and vegetables and build the things needed , too many people who see flower arranging as important as growing food , they see the romance of it all with out the hard work , too many people with out the skills needed and seemingly no aptitude for developing those skills

Too many people with out equal levels of commitment and no clear view of the future and the present , and lots of stupid mistakes like spending all their money planting fruit trees that will take 5 to 10 years to bear fruit and not planting any thing that will see them through the next few months

David

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Re: The Communal Village

#10 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:56 pm

Guys, I agree with a lot, not all, of what you are saying. I am also quite aware of the failure rate at least for modern practicioners of this lifestyle choice hence the questions at the beginning. I think that many of the failures could have been given a better chance with the proper planning, the proper selection process, a rejection of the cosmic crystal healing thinking, and people wanting to be fire dancers and not blacksmiths.

Planting fruit trees are an important element of future planning and making a spiritual and practical connection to the future but you are absolutely correct David about prioritising.

If I were to consider creating or joining such a community I would look at the goals of the group both long and short term, that everyone works and that this be contracted into their continued citizenry with the project, there would be a tax...sorry for those that actually think taxes are a bad thing which is a wholly different attitude to thinking taxes are spend poorly, complimentary skill sets...as mentioned before BLACKSMITHING...one of the most important trades of the last few thousand years. Teaching, stone masonary, pottery and weaving, and of course farming. Not everyone needs to be an expert horticulturalist but those that lack a knowledge or skill need to make themselves available to the ones that are. Apprentiships within the group would be essential.

There are skills that all must possess such as being able to get along. Some people simple lack this personality trait because getting along is less crucial in large fast paced modern anonimous society. In small groups sociopaths, bullies and the lazy are very quickly identified and often given their marching orders or put in their place.

A constitution would also be important as well as a code of ethics. Good starting points would be democratic principles but I would tend for the majority to be more conclusive than the 51-49% idea maybe closer to the 75% or 90% but I would have to think on that a bit more.

I would also use many of the principles of the 10 Commandments as a starting point. I am not a Christian nor a believer so guaranteed religious freedom would be of primrary importance but many of the rules laid down by the 10 Commandmants are principles conducive to the "getting along" or peaceful interactions with your neighbours, and the word neighbour would actually start to have real meaning again in such a group. Not stealing, not coverting your neighbours goods or wife, charity and good will, these are all sensible. Things like "not building graven images" are specifically related to an extended religious principle and serve no practical purpose for the secular community.

Living close to neighbours is not a problem at Crystal Waters, 650 Acres of land and 83 residential dwelling. A fraction of the density found in a typical suburb even a suburb with properties on acreage lots. The bonus also of large areas of common land in natural, cultivated and landscaped states.

I am suspicious of strong leaders in the main, and in times of peace think they are generally unnecessary other than in their own minds. That does not mean the group should be leaderless. Just that leaders should essentially be implementers, administrators and beauocrats of the groups policy....not their own.

Cheers
Troy.

dmm, I am part way through a reply to you as well mate but struggling for time.
Last edited by Chase N. Nocks on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#11 Post by Nephew » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:27 pm

dmm wrote: . I think I'm right in saying the Aboriginal male has a shorter than average life expectancy today, but is it longer than it would have been in the 15th Century?
No, it has shortened considerably. Archaeologists are finding remains of some aboriginal folk who were in the their 70s when they died, with todays average life expectancy of a male aboriginal being 56. The combination of a variety of good, fresh food, and the fact that they had to work hard to get it made, at least in the coastal people, for pretty impressive specimens.
They have also found Neanderthals that were in their late 60's-early 70's who must have been looked after by their contemporaries, as they had worn teeth so their food had to be pre-masticated, and they had some kind of religious rituals because often pollen is found in graves in a quantity that could only have come from laying flowers on the corpse. Natufians, too, commonly reached 60-65. They also were pretty fine examples of humans, fitness and strength wise.
I can't help but imagine pre-historic people as just being us, but without the technology to confuse them into thinking they are not a part of nature.
As for the communal living, mate what I was talking about was buggering off out west to be ALONE! I'm not looking for communal living, quite the opposite! :wink:
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

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Re: The Communal Village

#12 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:55 pm

dmm wrote:
Chase N. Nocks wrote: Honest and Realistic thinking. Any romantic notions must be separated and MURDERED! For instance, I am continually gobsmacked by the amount of people that have this romantic notion of subsistance living, whether hunter gatherer or early agricultural. The delusion of the Noble Savage. And I usually reserve the biggest guffaw for those that imagine those lives as free, independant, bountiful and healthy. Their existance was not devoid of these things but small comunities, especially those of a traditional or subsistance nature have very real obligations and rules placed on their members because survival sepends on it and prosperity is impossible without it.
I think the other common unrealistic thinking is that you are going to live in harmony with nature, and have all the modern conveniences. It makes me think of greenies drinking latte under outdoor heaters ruing the greenhouse effect. People eating bacon and eggs, or chicken burgers talking about animal cruelty and all the other Hypocrisies of our modern society.

The Noble savage has existed in Australia. We're taught the Aborigines had it, but to sustain it, they needed access to more land than I can imagine crystal waters has. I think I'm right in saying the Aboriginal male has a shorter than average life expectancy today, but is it longer than it would have been in the 15th Century?
Exactly mate. I guess some think you need to be a vegetarian to live with nature. I am not critical of vegetarians that make a moral choice to eat that way either. I can respect it. Actually the flaw is when SOME start to make the claim that it is natural. I make a similar but not so extreme moral choice of my own. But apes are omnivores, like bears we are opportunists. Part of the reason for our evolutionary success.

I do not purchase or eat, in the main, chickens/eggs that I believe have been battery hen factory produced. It is a complete misnomer to call these farms. They are havens of cruelty amd misery that can only profit in apathetic, stupid or ignorant societies. I make similar distinctions where I can about other meats as well. I also ask myself honestly if I lived on a bit of land could and would I breed and harvest livestock and the answer is yes I would but my meat consumption would be reduced I think because I personally, without apology or contradiction, find killing a rather sobering and unpleasant business. As well, the fact that I find certain meat products unpleasant ie kidneys, liver etc I would endeavour to use or trade as much of the animal as possible in the best RIVER COTTAGE tradition.

The greenies drinking lattes is not wholly inconsistant if they are reducing their environmental footprint in other ways. Check out a book called Sustainable House (the practices here are very harmonious with nature and allow good levels of modern technological comfort)....and a concept called Aquaponics. Both would allow the average city dweller to make a substancial individual impact while still "appearing" to be a model of conservative thinking. I will admit that my politics are far more identifiably Green than any other political party, does not mean that I support them 100%. but any %age is better than the near 0% that I give to the Labor Party and even less to the Liberal party.

I think the Noble Savage is a bit of a Myth and as I have argued previously here I don't think the Australian Aboriginal had any great monopoly on intrinsic spirituality rather they and their thinking was very much a product of their environment. I began school in the 70's hearing how the Australian Aboriginal's lived here for 20,000-70,000 years and did no harm in all the time they were here. It is either a fantasy of ignorance or a fantasy of untruth but the Australian Aboriginal had a continental ranging effect on fauna, flora and even weather. Admittedly a small fraction of the destruction wrought by modern western society. The distances and difficulty of living in the Australian environment allowed less time to be devoted to large scale or protracted conflict between groups and possibly cemented intergroup co-operation more than other cultures. Frequency of travel as well as the permanancy of settlements again depended on resources..Murray River Aboriginals did not have the need to travel vast or seasonal distances that the desert dwellers did, and in fact evidence of near permanant dwellings as well as plant and animal cultivation have been discovered, albeit at a very primative level.

The more spread out and seasonal their resources the more land they needed. Imagine it as a calorie/acre ratio that needs to be maintained. The less available calories per acre there are then the more land you are going to need to live. The more calories per acre you can introduce and maintain the less you need to move. This is a possible reason for the freezing of Aboriginal culture and technology while Europe went ahead in leaps and bounds. France is able to produce as much quality produce as Australia because this country simply does not have the quality of soil that Europe does. In fact our stupidity has lead us to basically salt poison vast tracks of land that would starve or bankrupt most European countries. We are saved not through cleverness, just the availability of other parcels of land we can buggerup.

Life expectancies are interesting but I have not looked into them. I will try to get the chance to do so. Quality of life also matters. And the hard work of living and co-operating within a small group can be offset by very real senses of belonging and the quiet moments half dozing to bird calls after a days work rather than stuck in traffic inhauling fumes and listening to radio jocks that if their IQ's aren't represtended by single digit numbers then their years of maturity certainly are.

Cheers
Troy
Last edited by Chase N. Nocks on Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#13 Post by Roadie » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:11 pm

Troy just remember, A Camel was a Horse designed by a Commitee. Cheers Roadie.

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Re: The Communal Village

#14 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:41 pm

Moreton wrote:
dmm wrote: . I think I'm right in saying the Aboriginal male has a shorter than average life expectancy today, but is it longer than it would have been in the 15th Century?
No, it has shortened considerably. Archaeologists are finding remains of some aboriginal folk who were in the their 70s when they died, with todays average life expectancy of a male aboriginal being 56. The combination of a variety of good, fresh food, and the fact that they had to work hard to get it made, at least in the coastal people, for pretty impressive specimens.
They have also found Neanderthals that were in their late 60's-early 70's who must have been looked after by their contemporaries, as they had worn teeth so their food had to be pre-masticated, and they had some kind of religious rituals because often pollen is found in graves in a quantity that could only have come from laying flowers on the corpse. Natufians, too, commonly reached 60-65. They also were pretty fine examples of humans, fitness and strength wise.
I can't help but imagine pre-historic people as just being us, but without the technology to confuse them into thinking they are not a part of nature.
As for the communal living, mate what I was talking about was buggering off out west to be ALONE! I'm not looking for communal living, quite the opposite! :wink:
No mate you were talking about not being able to do it. I was suggesting that a compromising position is not insensible and assumed that with your generally socialist, which I often interprete as being procommunity ethos, that such a concept would be far from offensive. Interesting that the suggestion that vegetarianism is natural for human beings is readily scoffed at but people being islands unto themselves is not. And the Individualism that these concepts of insular or isolated existence are quite Ann Rand(ish) and not much to be admired. Think of the sole survivor of a disaster, even after developing rugged survival skills and the necessary individualist mentality risks everything! to find companionship. Only a few are cut out for that really, the Tarzan of Nth Queensland or Jeromiah Johnson spring to mind. I am sure you are being a bit tongue-in-cheek. :P

We have lived in groups very likely since before we were even apes. Group living is the basis of human ethics and where the strengths of our species really lay. Living such an isolative existance is just as silly a romantic notion as badly written poetry being as valuable as a bushell of oats.

I like being alone and enjoy my own company. But I also have mateships, one of which is almost as old as I am, and I am 48 this year I think. That 40 year friendship is something of great value to me. There are times when I can be happily alone with a book in a room full of people. I could be at the test at the MCG and be completely alone amongst 80,000 people because within that world the preoccupying interest is not one that I could share in. In a 650 acre village with 80 odd dwellings I think I could satisfy most of my alone needs. As well as the commeradere events that add such excellent favour and development into our existance.

Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#15 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:49 pm

Roadie wrote:Troy just remember, A Camel was a Horse designed by a Commitee. Cheers Roadie.
:lol: Yes mate that is a favourite of mine as well. But I watch Apollo 13 and see what no one man could have done and wonder why the USA and the world for that matter don't lament more the lose of the talent, enthusiasm and optimism that was condensed in that control room at that period. Sadly the worship of money came to full fruition in the 20th century. The world is in crisis and the obsenity of a Humvee dealership is just 100 metres down the road.

Besides, Camels do some things better than horses and they both taste alright. Camel is a bit smellier than horse so more garlic in the marinade helps.

Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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Re: The Communal Village

#16 Post by Nephew » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:59 pm

Hah, I've always liked that one, Grant! :D

It's worth noting, Troy, that the Natufians used to make the most beautiful mortar and pestle sets in Basalt with perfectly uniform thickness in the sides/walls of the mortars and excellent footings. The archaeologist in the Doco I saw (Stories from the Stone Age"- it's in serial form on Youtube) said it would have required at least 8, maybe more, hours of recreation time a day to produce these useful, but aesthetically pleasing tools.
I may be guilty of some of that romantic thinking you mentioned before, but I kinda like to think that the coastal people here had a far superior lifestyle to us. I once was told that the Sydney suburb of Manly was so named because a sailor saw a very fine specimen of a man standing at the top of some cliffs. Might be nonsense, and I've never seen Sydney to even know if there is any cliffs at Manly, but it's sure a nice story, hey?
Sure, there was violence of a kind we would be shocked by, and they certainly had none of our modern conveniences ( they simply had no need for them, necessity being the mother of invention and all), but I tend to think all up, I'd prefer it to our "rort those that can least afford it, winner takes all" capitalist society.
But that's just me, and I'm a bit weird like that. :wink: :lol:
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

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Re: The Communal Village

#17 Post by Nephew » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 pm

Chase N. Nocks wrote:
Moreton wrote:
dmm wrote: . I think I'm right in saying the Aboriginal male has a shorter than average life expectancy today, but is it longer than it would have been in the 15th Century?
No, it has shortened considerably. Archaeologists are finding remains of some aboriginal folk who were in the their 70s when they died, with todays average life expectancy of a male aboriginal being 56. The combination of a variety of good, fresh food, and the fact that they had to work hard to get it made, at least in the coastal people, for pretty impressive specimens.
They have also found Neanderthals that were in their late 60's-early 70's who must have been looked after by their contemporaries, as they had worn teeth so their food had to be pre-masticated, and they had some kind of religious rituals because often pollen is found in graves in a quantity that could only have come from laying flowers on the corpse. Natufians, too, commonly reached 60-65. They also were pretty fine examples of humans, fitness and strength wise.
I can't help but imagine pre-historic people as just being us, but without the technology to confuse them into thinking they are not a part of nature.
As for the communal living, mate what I was talking about was buggering off out west to be ALONE! I'm not looking for communal living, quite the opposite! :wink:
No mate you were talking about not being able to do it. I was suggesting that a compromising position is not insensible and assumed that with your generally socialist, which I often interprete as being procommunity ethos, that such a concept would be far from offensive. Interesting that the suggestion that vegetarianism is natural for human beings is readily scoffed at but people being islands unto themselves is not. And the Individualism that these concepts of insular or isolated existence are quite Ann Rand(ish) and not much to be admired. Think of the sole survivor of a disaster, even after developing rugged survival skills and the necessary individualist mentality risks everything! to find companionship. Only a few are cut out for that really, the Tarzan of Nth Queensland or Jeromiah Johnson spring to mind. I am sure you are being a bit tongue-in-cheek. :P

We have lived in groups very likely since before we were even apes. Group living is the basis of human ethics and where the strengths of our species really lay. Living such an isolative existance is just as silly a romantic notion as badly written poetry being as valuable as a bushell of oats.

I like being alone and enjoy my own company. But I also have mateships, one of which is almost as old as I am, and I am 48 this year I think. That 40 year friendship is something of great value to me. There are times when I can be happily alone with a book in a room full of people. I could be at the test at the MCG and be completely alone amongst 80,000 people because within that world the preoccupying interest is not one that I could share in. In a 650 acre village with 80 odd dwellings I think I could satisfy most of my alone needs. As well as the commeradere events that add such excellent favour and development into our existance.

Cheers
Troy

I must confess, you're right on this. It's more of a fantasy life I like to imagine, than anything I really think I could actually do. Like how some may like to imagine how a certain job will make their life perfect. As I've told you, I have seen it done successfully, but that man was way stronger in spirit and tougher ( real definition of tough, not a fool always out to prove what a badass he is) than me, and he had more than earned his solitude... and even he had to go to town to find company occasionally, mostly ANZAC day, he didn't like being alone on ANZAC day much. In reality, I know it would be way harder than my little fantasy world, it's just what I like to imagine when I get disgusted with it all, or I've had enough. A bloke can dream can't he? :wink: :lol:

BTW, I had to laugh when you mentioned Jeremiah Johnson. Apart from old Duncan I told you about in a P.M., Jeremiah was a big childhood hero to me! When I was about...10 I think.. my highest aspiration was to be that old bear hunter Jeremiah met " Skin me that one, Pilgrim, and I'll bring ya another!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you really 48? HUH! :o I always have imagined you as about 10 years younger than me, for some inane reason! I can't explain why, there is no reason really, it's just the picture I've always had in my mind, that's all.
Lately, if life were treating me any better, I'd be suspicious of it's motives!

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Chase N. Nocks
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Re: The Communal Village

#18 Post by Chase N. Nocks » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:13 pm

Really really interesting video about the Cuban experience dealing with the vacumm created by peak oil...something that is heading our way as soon as 2014 if it is not already here...this where oil demand outstrips the ability to supply oil.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 067928384#

Some Blacksmithing stuff. Very interesting...lots of videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJHQoVUzvbU



Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"

....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"

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GrahameA
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Re: The Communal Village

#19 Post by GrahameA » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:05 am

Morning Troy.
Chase N. Nocks wrote:Really really interesting video about the Cuban experience dealing with the vacumm created by peak oil...something that is heading our way as soon as 2014 if it is not already here...this where oil demand outstrips the ability to supply oil
Not quite correct. There is no vacuum - all there is is a status whereby demand is greater than available supply. It does not matter what the material is it will eventually reach a point whereby demand exceeds supply unless it renews in the time span of it use. Chance are we have already reached "Peak Oil" at current consumption rates however if consumption rates where to change downward then ......

A bit of "Demand Side Management" would not go astray here.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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dmm
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The Communal Village

#20 Post by dmm » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:22 pm

Chase N. Nocks wrote:Really really interesting video about the Cuban experience dealing with the vacumm created by peak oil...something that is heading our way as soon as 2014 if it is not already here...this where oil demand outstrips the ability to supply oil.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 067928384#

Some Blacksmithing stuff. Very interesting...lots of videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJHQoVUzvbU



Cheers
Troy
New topic perhaps?
David
--
Sky TDX 17 riser with Kaya Carbon Tomcat limbs(25H-36#) short Beiter button and rest.

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Flatliner
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Re: The Communal Village

#21 Post by Flatliner » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:53 pm

It's a romantic notion. 30 years ago, my parents bought into some land with a number of other permaculture enthusiasts.
It didn't work out. Nothing nasty, but they just didn't seem to be able to agree on how to move forward and eventually lost their momentum. The main guy, then moved to Crystal Waters.
I'm probably a bit late with this (I've been otherwise occupied :wink: ) but I'm actually a certified permaculture designer, did the course with the man himself (Bill Molison) about 18 years ago. the theories on social structure are great until you add people, then it all turns to the proverbial s**t.
Although I do recall something about the numbers of people in a community, prooven historically to be unstable between something like 40 and 80,000. Meaning a community with a population between these two numbers is actually in a state of flux and could grow and stabilize or shrink and ultimately fail. So going by this data, Cairns should now be stable, unless we get a proper blow of course :lol: :lol: .
Rob.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
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