No one with half a brain would vote Greens would they ?

[Nephew]

I can still appreciate your principals without having to agree with them. Mick

This is the part I most admire. It's great to see respectful political discussion... indeed even disagreement... conducted in such a mature and mutually courteous manner. Well done, gentlemen.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Moreton, what you have just posted is exactly the way I see it. That if the raft of policies are good for the community and you agree with most of them then your own personal desires might sometimes have to come second for the best community result.

If indeed it is the Greens policy then you can always join the party and try to get rid of it! MOST GREENS THAT I HAVE MET HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH HUNTING FERALS AND EATING MEAT AND WEARING LEATHER CONTRARY TO WHAT PEOPLE THINK. Policies can change. The level of commitment and sacrifice that members put in to keep the party going and resist the sledging of all and sundry is awesome. I am expending energy defending the greens because I know it's worth it. I do see both sides however.

Some greens may be misguided as in all groups but they dig deep to help others and for that I will support them as there motives do not stem from selfishness.

Freedom doesn't mean to be able to do just anything. At times to live amongst each other we all curtail various freedoms. Most of give up the freedom to speed on the highway or push to the front of the line. Freedom is always relative.

Mate I agree with this 100%. There is room for the Greens and room for the Country Alliance if both parties are genuinely concerned about this country AND this world. There is a great deal of personality driven policy in the Greens but there is a lot of high value policy as well. What I hope there is ever decreasing room for on our political scene is the current two parties that have swapped power over the last 60+ years and increasing represent no other interest than that of corporate power.

I hope future generations view Liberal and Labor as the parties that have betrayed the common good and democracy. They have sold public assets and thrown Australian citizens to the wolves especially the older generations that built this country. The people that took a hand in selling Telecom and The Commonwealth Bank should be hanged for treason. If Telecom had not been sold the bush would have had Broardband years ago. Super Annuation has been a disgraceful rorting of the system that should have seen much stronger guarantees on people money that they were relying upon. In fact the money should have been saved within the goverment or public purse like bonds. And the creation of all these middle man companies that are for instance selling energy. That has to be one of the biggest cons I have ever seen in the modern world. They are creating industries out of nothing, that do nothing but make money for their mates that already have the money to purchase the licences to make more money. Do you know what it is called...sactioned piracy...it is just bloody well stealing.

BTW I support the policy of areas that cannot be hunted or fished. I also support the hunting of native species but I don't think there are that many other than the kangaroo whose numbers are able to support hunting pressure. We should be farming, harvesting and eating kangaroos, emus and crocs and ducks. Although I would never shoot a duck. I like ducks but I don't like duck.

[Lochmoy]

I agree with everything you've said Chasin nocks and I have really enjoyed thrashing out these ideas as I have learned a lot also. Great discussion. Hooray for trad. archers!

Just a couple of things Mick. Thankyou for respecting my principles. I also respect and value your informed opinions. I know you think I am locked into the Greens and it is true to a point. But my efforts and vote will quickly fly elsewhere if I get a wiff of what you accuse them of. It is only by being involved directly to an extend that I can assure you that you are in many ways misrepresenting the group. A couple of other points;

All the extremist accusations you have leveled at the Greens have also been leveled at the Country Alliance (for different reasons of course). If you give it, you have to be able to take it.

During the fed. election the green vote across the country was 15% and in the Vic. election it was 13.4 %. Up 2% respectively from the last elections. In the Victorian elections, in 8 inner city seats, the vote for the Greens was between 27% and a high of 37% in one seat. In regional centres the vote drops to around 8 to 10 percent but almost no seat drops below 3 to 5 percent. I don't think the country alliance gets more than 1 to 2 percent anywhere (I will stand corrected if someone knows for sure).

Now with all that percentage, due to geographical factors, the Greens can only achieve one (1) lower house seat in any pariliment in the country. By sheer numbers, in the Victorian State lower house of 83 seats, the Greens would have up to 12 seats. However the system as it is allows the Nationals with 6 to 8 percent of the vote, I think, around 12 seats. It is great that the Nationals are able to represent their constituents but 1 in 6 voters in this country have noone one to represent their views. Even Mick if you consider all the Greens views extreme you can no doubt see the injustice in this.

In closing. If you reckon that the country man is getting a bum deal, then try rooting for a party that almost never wins and has only very recently after 18 hard slog years, finally got a voice. People might not like the voice but the Greens still have a right to speak.

The Green vote is very high in the inner city true, but Mick you are wrong about the demographic. All ages vote for the Greens. This is born out in survey after survey and a serious number also live in the country so don't keep tarring us all with the yuppie, schmuppie, hoodoo gooroo, crazy,simplisitically driven idealistic, latte drinking bohemians. I am none of those things. I hail from Horsham, am a property developer, have hunted, my father was a stock and station agent who always voted nationals I am a trained ecologist and have studied numerous habitats and species over 30 years. I think that does it.

[Mick Smith]

Fair enough Leigh.

I'll just sum up the situation from my perspective in a few simple points.

The Greens have benefited greatly from a strong nationwide dissatisfaction with the performance of the major parties, particularly the Labour party. Many of the Green votes have come directly from these dissatisfied Labour voters as they have changed camps. I don't believe the Greens should be patting themselves on the back too much for their increasing support. The Greens have just happened to be a convenient alternative to all those dissatified Labour voters who just couldn't bring themselves to vote Liberal.

I believe that there will be a strong, ever growing anti-Green movement in this country as a direct result of the Greens seemingly uncaring attitude and apparent bent to severely kerb the activities of people, like most of the members of this website and just about anyone who actually gets out and enjoys the bush as a part of their lifestyle. I believe that certain elements of the Greens will not be happy until their extreme ideals have been met. The Country Alliance party is just the beginning of this anti-green movement and it will grow, unless the Greens change their apparent demeanor.

I also believe that the Greens are doing themselves a great disservice by being so radical in their views, as well as being so all encompassing in their views. The world is in crisis with things like global warming, increasing problems with the oceans PH levels and out of control greed, to name a very important few. If the Greens just focused on the big picture and refrained from the apparent 'big brother' all knowing attitude on smaller issues, like 30% Marine National Parks and banning duck hunting, just to name a couple, they would be a lot better off. Hell, I might even vote for them if that was the case.

The bottom line for me at the moment is, the Greens, if they had the power to, would simply detroy my (and many others) way of life, by banning me from, or excluding me from the things I love. They would crush me (and many others like me) like a bug to achieve their heady ideals, without a moments notice and without an iota of regret. I would have be a very silly person indeed, to let them do that without a fight. I feel certain that this is really the case, despite your constant reassuring. I'm also sure that many others who share my way of life feel exactly the same way too.

Now, I may be right or I may be wrong with my above observations. Either way the problem still lies with the Greens. Either the policies are just as shocking as I fully suspect they are, or their ability to convey their ideas and policies (in effect their grand view for the future), to the general public are abysmal to say the very least.

Mick

[Chase N. Nocks]

Lochmoy, I agree that there is no real democracy until we have a proportional voting system in place. Our parlimentary system was originally established to work with many minor parties with parliment providing the forum for debate. PM's and ministers are able to be selected by a general vote in the parliment. Imagine picking the most able from the whole pool of parlmentarians. Radical stuff....well radical for the modern corruptly expedient system of modern capitalist democracies.

The seating in parliment should reflect the percentages of the voters. If 12% of the vote goes to Green then 12% of the seats should be Green. This should apply to both Parliment and the Senate.

I remember when I was growing up that when an election was coming up people spoke about multiple issues and the issues that were most often discussed were things that the community valued because they gave value to being a part of a community. The issues were community centered. Issues like Education, Health, Law and Order, Public Service, Public Transport, Pensioners and Defence.

Do we hear any of these things anymore? Hardly. What we hear constantly is Economy, Economy and Economy. What value has the economy to me and my children if there is no social justice. What use is a surplus if it isn't being spent to make my country better? It is no use and it is of no value.

We open our markets and our stores are completely flooded with GARBAGE..can you remember a time when it was almost impossible to buy garbage?? I can. Sure, in terms of the purchase-income ratio it probably cost more but it lasted longer and gave better service, it was more accurate, it was repairable, it was something that could be pased on and enjoyed..now it breaks, dump it, bury it and buy a new one. It is a false economy we have been sucked into. And an offensive abuse of the world resourses and so wasteful. Even recycling is a poor substitute from building things well and making them repairable.


But Economy is King and the idiot proles have bought into the hype hand over fist...remember the laughable mining commercials recently. I kept hoping that someone would drag out the old "Australia Your Standing In It" Chunky Custard commercials...Yes thanks mining companies you really have my interests at heart. The Fly River in New Guinea is a fine example of what you think of the world..I remember reading books about the Fly river when I was a kid and New Guinea was as wild and exciting as the Amazon. Now the mighty Ok Tedi/Fly river systems is just a poisionous graveyard of it's former self...shame.

Spear Chucker is finding himself the victim of this very mentality, this insensitive bludgeoning force of money worship. The government allows unfair recompence for this invasion. Sorry but there should not be one $$ profit to shareholders until every person effected is given monetary justice, there should not be one overpaid ceo or board member until every person effected has been given monetary justice, not one bonus or golden handshake until every person effected has been given monetary justice. And every Australian should be outraged that this could happen and send both major parties packing to the wilderness forever.

I would also say to Spear Chucker that this IS an example of why organisations such as ABA can have an effect. Maybe it is not very large and maybe it struggles but simply in terms of economy of scale like minded individuals can organise. And each one of us involved in archery have a circle of friends not involved of which a number could be recruited to add a voice. For a well argued just cause it could swell quickly so our voice is magnified many times over. Individually we really are nothing. And if we are only going to take care of ourselves as you suggested with hunting we are doomed as a group. It has an importance beyond whether you can get to a club or shoot.

[dawallace45]

Personally I consider a a proportional voting system fought with danger while we have a compulsory voting system in place , too many people just don't think about who or what they are voting for ,

I really do think most Australians don't have any respect for their politicians at all and many of the ones I've met really aren't worthy of respect , some are and try to do a good job for the people who elected them but they seem to be getting more scarce every day

Most people really don't have any idea of the policies of the parties they vote for and I'm not sure they care , I do and I try and get all the info on the people running and what they and their parties stand for and if I can I try and talk to them but I really do think I'm in the minority

They reckon that people get the politicians they deserve , well in that case we must be a mob of Bas#@%ds

David

[Roadie]

I have never meet a politican yet who cares about me or what I want. To me all politican only care about themselves, no one gives a damm about us, they sweat talk us, only to trample on us. My view of politcians is very gaundice. I have to be very careful what I say here. as Admin will take me of the site. I personally do not trust any of them. Cheers Roadie.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Currently reading "Requiem for a Species" by Clive Hamilton...give it a read fellas it is very enlightening.

eg.

"Twenty-five Setember 2009 was World Overshoot Day, also known as Ecological Debt Day, the day on which humanity used up all the resources generated by nature in that year and began living off the world's capital. In that year humans used about 40% more resources than the ecosystems of the Earth could generate, equivalent to a household spending more than it's income by taking out a loan. Put another way, we would need 1.4 planets like Earth to be able to sustain our consumption levels, assuming economies grew no more."

Problem is we are now in a systematic borrowing for every year while the modern worship of GROWTH dominates national drives and the popular psyche. Without a care that it is our children and grandchildren that will have to make the payments, if they are still around of course.

I can only imagine the fondness with which future generations will look back at us. As they do without what many of us now would consider common or comfortable minimums and remember their parents world of 3 cars per household, 5 TV's, electronic goods that you need to pay a premium to get what used to be a standard but mostly unnecessary warrenty (remember that, when things lasted rather than being designed to fail), where we argued about Marine Parks but had whole ailes in supermarkets dedicated to feeding pets while depleting fish stocks, a world of complete self indulgence and shallowness of jet skis and $10 000 handbags.

As author Shelley Gare says it is a "Triumph of the Airheads." I know it is not just my generation to blame or just the generations riding that euphoric wave of peace and consumerism since World War 2. The blame can be laid in various degrees right from the beginning of the industrial era. A beginning that saw children, babies as young as 5 and 6 working and dying in coal mines the abhorence of which should never be forgotten and yet I can imagine a great many of our captians of industry that still today would not blush at such a social repeat as long as it increased their markets.

But my generation and the ones either side are the ones who truly have had the benefit of the full picture of what awaits the technological animal. As Omar N. Bradley says

If we continue to develop our technology without wisdom or prudence, our servant may prove to be our executioner.

Cheers
Troy (having a vent)

[Mick Smith]

I see our PM even said they're extremist and she's in bed with them.

Mick

[Nephew]

G'Day Mick, good to see you here, it's been a while since I've run into you 'round these parts.
Mate, that comment she made was in response to the fact that the progressives in society are turning to the Greens for policies they agree with that they could once find in the Labor party, but since the party has lurched to the right, they no longer find anything that concurs with a progressive stance. In the precarious situation the Govt. is in regarding numbers in The House, this is a genuine threat. She can't try to coax them back to try to boost the numbers for the next election, with Sussex Street being unwilling to cede any ground to the more progressive members of their own party ( as has been recommended by an in house inquiry conducted recently) let alone society in general, so she (and the whole party) are lurching ever further to the Right... She is captive to the likes of Paul Howes and Mark Arbib after they put their weight behind her takeover of the P.Ms office. This doesn't excuse her, just illustrates the craven state of affairs in Australian politics right now. This current generation of the political representatives (remember when they referred to themselves that way? Somewhere along the line it was perverted so that now they refer to themselves as "Leaders" Can anyone show me a "House of Political Leaders" as opposed to a "House of Representatives" ?) are a great disappointment to me, on all levels of Govt. and none so much as Labor ! The great Ben Chifley would be rolling in his grave! Hell! My own Grandmother would be! She used to push my dad in his pram up the hills of West End, Highgate Hill, Hill End, South Brisbane and Dutton Park (all inner city suburbs and very hilly indeed) to do letter box drops for them back in the late 1930's and early 1940's, I can't imagine she'd to it for this mob of impostors!

The one thing I will pay tribute to the Greens on is they are the only party with any chance of having influence that are willing to take on the rich and powerful with vested interests in keeping the worker oppressed in this country , a filthy crime committed since the first Redcoat put hobnail boot to Australian soil. On that count I say "Good For Them!", on some other policies I have problems, but that guts on this issue alone is enough for me to at least consider them at the ballot box. The last 30 years of Laissez Fair, law of the jungle, no rules, no fairness, economic fundamentalism and ideological fanaticism masquerading as policy that has been foisted upon a once decent society has been a complete disaster to those that care about a truly "Fair Go" and the worst part is a lot of Australians have fallen for the ruse of "Individual Rights" ( selfishness and "I want what I want and that's all that matters" as policy) over what is best for the collective. Anyone that will challenge that Status Quo deserves a chance, in my books.

This is only my opinion, though, and I respect that others may see it differently. I think it's great that so far in this thread everyone seems to feel that it's O.K. to disagree with someone, but still think they are a nice bloke, y'know? Very impressive, Gentlemen.

[Mick Smith]

Hi Moreton. I haven't been posting much lately, but I've been keeping abreast of Ozbow news by checking the site out regularly. I have too many friends here, to simply walk away.

I agree with your points regarding the current state of politics in this country and in particular the very poor performance of the Labour government. I've been a very keen labour supporter for my entire adult life until recently.

Everything in Australian politics is just too mild and similiar. Labour policies and Liberal policies are almost the same, with just minor differences. It's just a bland and boring attempt to increase their popularity by attracting the attention of the centre factions. At least the Greens are dishing up something that's fresh and exciting, though, if they're ultimately successful, they will destroy our lifestyle.

Yes, by every means, let's bring back the good old days, when the Labour Party was the Labour Party and the Liberal Party was the Liberal party. Those were the days when we could actually vote to make a difference to our lives. The way it is now, it's almost a waste of time voting in elections. This is why the results have been so close in recent elections.

I will be voting for people who will protect my lifestyle. The Labour party has lost a staunch supporter.

Mick

[Nephew]

Yep! I completely agree, they have lost me and that's really saying something. My family has been Labor since the shearers union meetings under the "Tree of Knowledge" out at Barcaldine, or at least, it feels that way! I also agree on the fact that if given enough rope, the Greens will hang US ! ( as in, those who like to hunt. I said "consider" not "will vote for"), I just admire that they are not intimidated by "The Money"... but where do I go? I just can't bring myself to vote for any party that would have Abbott as their Federal Leader, or their junior partners. I'm just going to have to try to convince Tony Windsor to move to my electorate, hey?