Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

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greybeard
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Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#1 Post by greybeard » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:20 pm

Where do bio composite bows fit in?

It would appear that these bows are placed in various categories most of which are inappropriate for the construction and style of bow. At one particular traditional shoot a bio composite bow was put in the selfbow category. They have also been relegated to the primitive division.

Should there be a division to cover these and other nonconforming bows regardless of limb profile?

From Paleo Planet;

Mark in England,
“This has been a topic for discussion in the UK where archers bought these bows to shoot within the Primitive Class in the UK National Field Archery. Bow breakages and following discussion with Grozer (rather reluctantly) reveals that these bows have a fibreglass layer onto the wooden core, and that the "horn" and "sinew" layers are basically resin impregnated pressed sheets of horn and sinew particles. Sadly, though sold as natural horn/sinew bows they are anything but. The fibreglass and resin is a critical part of the bows construction and performance.”

Assyrian Archer,

“Hi there folks,
I happen to own an Assyrian biocomposite bow from Grózer, and I figured out its exact construction.
The belly of the bow is made of pressed horn. Below that, there is a layer of fibreglass. Underneath the glass two layers of ash wood can be found. Then again, you have a layer of fibreglass. The very back of the bow consists of pressed sinew.
Modern (epoxy) glue is used to keep it together, and a layer of lacquer is applied to finish the bow. (Reason for knowing this is that I have seen the poor thing torn to pieces when he delaminated and broke.)
And always keep in mind; you could ask Csaba Grózer yourself, he will know the exact answer!”


https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paleopl ... 47257.html

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Kendaric
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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#2 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:10 pm

Interesting article.

Under ABA it would just be placed into Historical: "In this division there shall be no distinction between the different configurations of bow design and material used. There shall be no grades or classes. A Historical Bow is a bow recognised as such by the Association and is of known accepted usage during the period preceding the year 1900 and shall be either a self-wood or a composite bow, which is made to a configuration which has established historical precedence."

Under TAA I think it would be put into "Asiatic Style Bows". It wouldn't be put into Primitive as "a primitive bow is any bow of any design that does not have fibreglass or carbon in its construction".

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#3 Post by temudjin » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:43 pm

Hey Daryl,

I have for many years shot these Grozer bio composite bows and have sometimes been put into self bow as you say and occasionally even recurve divisions. More recently, at most trad shoots, I am in the "Horse Bow/Asiatic Bow" class as per the TAA Guidelines. For me the issue is more about shooting around the handle than materials (just my opinion) as that makes arrows selection and tuning more critical than on a centre cut bow.

I think the TAA Guidelines are a pretty good solution to the question you pose as the vast majority of "horse bows" tend to be laminated with at least some modern materials and glues. Unless of course someone goes slightly crazy and buys a Saluki which is made using all traditional materials and glues but very expensive.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#4 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:30 pm

temudjin wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:43 pm
I think the TAA Guidelines are a pretty good solution to the question you pose.....
Yes I think TAA equipment guidelines are a really good balance of the ideas of 'traditional'. I particularly like the statement from "Origins of TAA Rules": If we are going to be fairdinkum about Promoting and Protecting what's traditional in Australia we should ensure that instead of changing our rules to suit someone’s equipment we have their equipment changed to suit our rules.

Nicely put Keith.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#5 Post by Kendaric » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:37 pm

temudjin wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:43 pm
and have sometimes been put into self bow as you say and occasionally even recurve division.....
Yes, I saw at one ABA state or national shoot where a laminated bamboo Howard Hill Style longbow was put into "historical division" instead of the traditional longbow division where it belonged - all because the judges didn't know what to do with it.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#6 Post by greybeard » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:42 pm

Tom,

I started shooting selfbows and all bamboo Asiatic and static tip bows off the knuckle around 2004. Perhaps I was fortunate in that I found they were no more difficult to shoot than an off the shelf bow.

From Wiki;
“The bow and arrow appears around the transition from the Upper Paleolithic to the Mesolithic. After the end of the last glacial period, use of the bow seems to have spread to every inhabited region, except for Australasia and most of Oceania. “
Kendaric wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:30 pm
........Yes I think TAA equipment guidelines are a really good balance of the ideas of 'traditional'. I particularly like the statement from "Origins of TAA Rules": If we are going to be fairdinkum about Promoting and Protecting what's traditional in Australia we should ensure that instead of changing our rules to suit someone’s equipment we have their equipment changed to suit our rules.......
What is a true representation of traditional archery in Australia?

From AA;
“Although archery had been practised in Australia since 1790 (officers of the First and Second Fleet) with clubs operating in all capitol cities and major regional centres throughout the 1800's and early 1900's the Archery Association of Australia (AAA) was not officially formed until the 17th and 18th January 1948.”

It is most likely that the first known bows in common use in Australia had their origins in the European longbow [self bow]. Prior to this some primitive bows may have appeared in Australia via Papua New Guinea.

TAA;
Longbow; the longbow refers to the traditional, straight end style longbow.
The bow must be of wooden or bamboo construction. Materials such as fibreglass, Phenolic or carbon strips are permitted.

Carbon arrow shafts are not permitted as they cannot be seen as traditional.

ABA;
Traditional Longbow; A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials.

Arrows shall be wooden shafted.

Reads like double standards.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#7 Post by GrahameA » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:44 am

Morning All.

The issue regarding Bow Divisions/Rules has been debated for years on this Forum. The problem/stumbling block appears to be a lack of clear definitions and agreeance.

Grahame.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#8 Post by Kendaric » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:27 am

greybeard wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:42 pm

TAA;
Longbow; the longbow refers to the traditional, straight end style longbow.
The bow must be of wooden or bamboo construction. Materials such as fibreglass, Phenolic or carbon strips are permitted.

Carbon arrow shafts are not permitted as they cannot be seen as traditional.

ABA;
Traditional Longbow; A one piece straight ended bow of any material, whether glued up of one or more laminations of materials.

Arrows shall be wooden shafted.

Reads like double standards.

Daryl.
I had a look at the latest TAA equipment guidelines and for longbow it says: 'The bow can be of any material or use any modern glue in its construction'

This appears to be similar to ABA. Perhaps they changed the definition some time back.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#9 Post by temudjin » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:27 pm

Daryl,

You may already know this but there are actually three styles of longbow outlined in the TAA Equipment Guidelines.

1. Longbow - as you have described it above.

2. Hybrid Longbow - basically a reflex/deflex longbow as long as the string does not touch the belly of the bow when strung.

3. ELB - an English Longbow can be all one wood (self bow style) of laminated but only modern materials allowed are glues. No shelf allowed, must be shot off the hand.

The guidelines can be a little confusing as the three styles of longbow are interspersed with recurve, asiatic and so on. You really need to read the whole thing to get the full picture.

I am with Graeme on this one, whether you like TAA or not at least they have taken the time to think it thru and document a set of guidelines for trad equipment. And that means that members of TAA can have input into making changes if they want to.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#10 Post by Kendaric » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:56 pm

temudjin wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:27 pm
Daryl,

You may already know this but there are actually three styles of longbow outlined in the TAA Equipment Guidelines......

2. Hybrid Longbow - basically a reflex/deflex longbow as long as the string does not touch the belly of the bow when strung.
To be pedantic (and not to take away from the point you are saying), the TAA guidelines doesn't state Hybrid Longbow, but just Hybrid.

As we all really know, a hybrid is really a semi-recurve with a new marketable incorrect name of modern longbow. :teasing-poke:

TAA took the diplomatic road and called it hybrid.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#11 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:29 pm

Kendaric wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:56 pm
As we all really know, a hybrid is really a semi-recurve with a new marketable incorrect name of modern longbow. :teasing-poke:

TAA took the diplomatic road and called it hybrid.
No, TAA just abandoned the very traditions they claim to be protecting.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#12 Post by Kendaric » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:38 am

The joys of a committee.

Baby steps. I can only summarise from what I seem to be seeing at the time, that around the inception of the TAA as corporation there was a lot of resistance against separating out these semi-recurve/quasi modern longbows from tradition longbows from quite a few. Trad shoots events around this time lumped them in all together as and many did not want to change the status quo, and were quite adamant about it. I think it was only the insistence from a dedicated few that made sure that at least traditional longbow had a definition separate from the other - as a guideline. It took some time before some Trad shoots started to adopt the change.

Ideally these 'hybrids' should have been put into the recurve division were they belong, but I think the opposing pressure must have been too great. Physiologically people don't want to shoot a "semi"-recurve in the recurve division as it implies a 'lesser' recurve and reduced competitive advantage (that's not to say that that is actually true), whereas the opposite is true (from a physiological point of view) if they were able to compete in the longbow division. The fact that they had also bought into the marketing spin (at no necessary fault of there own) and invested in a 'modern longbow' probably plays a part in that mindset too, and that other organisations had divisions specific to these bows as well.

Hybrid strikes me as a terrible word, as it has no ring of 'traditional' in it, but then neither does modern longbow, so I suspect it was the lesser of two weevils (Master and Commander pun). So a specific division was born as a diplomatic solution. Semi-recurve may have been a more correct word, but considering the resistance to the notion of a semi-recurve actually being that, it probably was viable at the time. As time and acceptance increases, it may (or may not, more likely) be changed to that.

The most important thing is that traditional longbow now has it own division, separate from the other. That strikes me as a step in the right direction, if nothing else.




And before we get into the debate (again) about what is a longbow (using the sunken Mary Rose longbows having a curve in some of the limbs as an example) - we are talking about what we classify as 'traditional longbow' which is typified by the Howard Hill style longbow of the 50's (time frame only approximate).

Hybrid bows back then were called semi-recurve.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#13 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Kendaric,

I have been told by a committee member of TAA as to how things came about and it is as you described in your post. I agree 100% with most of what you say.
Kendaric wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:38 am
The most important thing is that traditional longbow now has it own division, separate from the other. That strikes me as a step in the right direction, if nothing else.
I can't agree with you about that. TAA's charter or whatever you wish to call it is this, "Promoting and Protecting Traditional Archery in all Forms". Right from the very outset they decided to disregard that, just as most other associations do. The simple question is this; What traditions are TAA promoting or preserving by changing the historical name given to a specific type of bow? They certainly aren't promoting or preserving any Traditional Archery traditions that I know of, in fact, they are showing total disregard for them. I guess I should add IMO.

I'll just leave it there as we have discussed similar previously. :biggrin:

Jeff

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#14 Post by temudjin » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Kendaric,

I hear you but I guess for my part, I saw "When strung and at brace height, the string must not touch the belly of the bow at all" and thought "longbow". Although I accept that is a simplistic view, but I like simple.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#15 Post by Kendaric » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:51 pm

temudjin wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:37 pm
Kendaric,

I hear you but I guess for my part, I saw "When strung and at brace height, the string must not touch the belly of the bow at all" and thought "longbow". Although I accept that is a simplistic view, but I like simple.
I like simple too, works for me.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#16 Post by greybeard » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:34 am

Because of the confusion associated with bow divisions at trad shoots I pay my money, don’t submit a score card, shoot whatever bow I choose on the day and have fun.

I am too old to put up with the b...s...t.

In what division would these bows be placed? Materials are a bamboo core under clear glass.
Coffee Bamboo Under Clear Glass.jpg
Coffee Bamboo Under Clear Glass.jpg (67.48 KiB) Viewed 576 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#17 Post by Kendaric » Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:29 am

greybeard wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:34 am
...... don’t submit a score card, shoot whatever bow I choose on the day and have fun.
That is a great attitude, wish more had it.

Problem I think is when people want to compete.

As to the bows question. Much would depend on if the event is sticking strictly to the TAA guidelines or not.

Assuming they are, then the length would also come into it. Without knowing that, I would summarise, from top top to bottom:

Longbow or hybrid
Longbow or hybrid
Longbow or hybrid or Asiatic - the Holmnegraad bow presents a interesting one. If long enough, it could still fit the profile definition of longbow. I say Asiatic could work because the definition says - Hungarian, Turkish or Mongol style bows or similar. The Holmnegraad whilst more Northern Europe, is is still similar in many repects, and only 1700 kms separates the closest.

The Holmnegraad bow could have fitted into primitive, if not laminated with glass.

I'm not sure I totally agree with the 66" rule for mens longbow, and I would have thought 64" would have been better, but I will accept that as their definition. I think the actual Events would be a little flexible on this too.

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#18 Post by greybeard » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:35 am

Kendaric wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:29 am
As to the bows question. Much would depend on if the event is sticking strictly to the TAA guidelines or not.
Apart from Barambah and possibly Wisemans Ferry I don’t know of any other clubs that use the TAA guide lines.

Archery clubs are usually affiliated with a mainstream archery association whereas as TAA is a membership organization whose members share a common interest.

Unfortunately the TAA guidelines were lifted off the rule book of a world wide archery governing body [either FITA or IFAA] and in my opinion are not suitable and some rulings are questionable.

I have never seen a ‘hybrid’ bow but I am familiar with deflex / reflex bows which I have made as a one piece of sleeved takedown bow.

All bows are 68” N to N. The top and middle bows are reflexed longbows, the top one being a carriage bow.

The bottom bow is a Danish flatbow with stiffened tips. There does not appear to be a division to cover this bow in its laminated form but fortunately I do have an all wood one in my bow rack in the Mollegabet style.
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15152
Carriage Longbow_Longbow_Danish Flatbow.JPG
Carriage Longbow_Longbow_Danish Flatbow.JPG (41.43 KiB) Viewed 479 times
The braced profile of the bow is not always indicative of its style.

I did have bows to cover all divisions until I sold my Asiatic static tip bow.

Fred Anderson;
“Howard thought that the two main qualities of a hunting bow had to be its durability (won’t break) and its steadiness in the hand when shooting (not sensitive to shooting errors). From his many years of experience, he came to rely on what he called an American Semi-longbow with straight ends, which, today, is regarded as a Hill-style bow.”http://www.ilongbow.com/Articles/The_Ho ... e_Bow.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatbow
“The American longbow, also known as the American flatbow, was developed in the 1930s. It resulted from scientific investigation into the best cross-sectional shape for a bow limb. This research was expected to explain why the English longbow's D-section was superior to all other extant designs. Instead, it showed that the best cross-section was a simple rectangle.[2] The American longbow was developed by applying these research findings to the English longbow. The result was a more efficient and stable bow which can be made from more common woods. Because of its coincidental resemblance to some Native American bows, the American longbow is also known as the semi-Indian bow.
The American longbow was popularised by Howard Hill and quickly displaced the English longbow as the preferred bow for target shooting.”

The following are interesting reading.
https://www.realworldsurvivor.com/2019/ ... n-flatbow/

https://hstw301fsu.wordpress.com/2016/0 ... dbury-bow/

Should the longbow [laminated] division be re named?

I guess it depends what rule book best suits an individual’s perception of the subject.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#19 Post by Kendaric » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:00 pm

greybeard wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:35 am
The braced profile of the bow is not always indicative of its style.
The TAA guidlines state the longbow being in the strung state. Now knowing the lengths, I would have thought longbow, longbow, probably longbow. I would have said the last as being longbow, however the TAA guidelines says "when strung, the profile of a longbows limbs shall show a single continuous curve at brace height" The continuous curve is the glitch. That's perhaps where the ABA description may have been a little better - "If there are any doubts about the curve being continuous and unidirectional then a string line stretched on the back of the bow from the riser ends to the commencement of the limb tip overlays will not show any gaps
under it.
" Are the stiffened limbs still bending? If so, longbow division easy.

I wouldn't take anything written on Wikipedia as being gospel, and many sites just plagiarize others - "This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations"

My understanding is that an American Longbow is not an American Flatbow (whilst the American Longbow did have flat limbs). That is were slackness in definition gets muddled. An American Flatbow is shorter with wider limbs and more like in style to the native bow. I believe Howard had sometimes referred to his American Longbow as a semi-longbow in reference to the ELB. Never have I heard an American Longbow being described as a semi-indian bow. An American Flatbow could be - but again, that is were slackness of definition gets things muddled.

I still think you could possibly put the Danish Bow into the Asiatic division if you wanted too - still sort of fits the bill if the stiffened section is completely static.

As to "I guess it depends what rule book best suits an individual’s perception of the subject" - absolutely, which is unfortunately why rules get more and more defined or complex. There would be no need for lawyers if that were not the case. As you sort of inferred, the TAA guidelines may require a little more refining, but I suppose they had to start somewhere with the most common understanding.

Agreed, Hybrid is not the best word, but a longbow and a semi-recurve/quazi modern longbow are easy enough to separate at a glance - but what to call it. Personally I think it should be just lumped into the recurve division. Maybe a deflex/reflex bow division?
greybeard wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:35 am
I have never seen a ‘hybrid’ bow but I am familiar with deflex / reflex bows

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Re: Bow Division for Bio Composite Bows.

#20 Post by greybeard » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:12 pm

Kendaric wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:00 pm
I still think you could possibly put the Danish Bow into the Asiatic division if you wanted too - still sort of fits the bill if the stiffened section is completely static.
Unfortunately the stiffened tip flatbow does not exhibit the mechanical working properties of the Asiatic static tip bow or have the appropriate limb profile.
The Statics Of A Composite Reflex Bow.jpg
The Statics Of A Composite Reflex Bow.jpg (82.84 KiB) Viewed 459 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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