Have to anneal Files?

[DylanK]

I have recieved a very nice 5160 steel bar from a very generous member of this forum and before i make my first knife, i wanted to try make one of a file first. Its a nicklson file that i got for $2 from the markets Is the hardess of a file as is good for a knife? I know a grinder will take metal away from everything, just drilling the holes might be a problem.

Dont want to wreck a perfectly good flat bar of steel on my first attempt.

I am going back and forth on wether i should send the 5160 steel to hills heat treating (dont know how much it costs) or do it at home in a forge i am yet to make. If i was to do the heat treating at home, then i would anneal the files first, but if not and the file hardness is adequet for a good knife, i would not.

What do the more experienced and knowledgeable craftsman think?

Dylan

[Coach]

Heat it up until a magnet wont stick to it ,, bloody HOT ,, them set it aside to cool . If you use some type of forge , leave it in there overnight to cool down after you have turned it off . Or put it into a bucket of sand .

[kimall]

Mate files make great knives as coach said get it hot enough that a magnet does not stick on your barbie or with a oxy and let it cool REAL SLOW.Then work it with your hand tools and when finished heat it the same again and quench in old oil and after a polish put it in the oven (when the boss is out) until it turns straw coloured and you will have a blade that will work great.I have one of my first knives done this way and it gets used every day in the kitchen and holds an edge really well.
Cheers KIM
PS If you want to send it to me I will do it for you for free.(The heating I mean)

[DylanK]

Thanks fellas I know that your ment to anneal them and all that, but i was asking if you have to or not. Is the hardness of the file as it is good for a knife beacause i can drill it but slowly.

Main problem is i dont have anything like a forge which is why im asking. I could build a brick one but then theres the problem of the air i need.

Thanks for the offer kimall, but i would really like to try this out myself.

On the forge note, would a furnace looking thing out of bricks, with a metal pipe blowing air in from the side using a hairdryer do the trick?

Dylan

[Stewart Townsend]

Someone told me do not use sand it might turn into glass and it is a shocker to grind then.

You can probably anneal it by putting it into a hot fire.

Not 100% sure but I think files are harder (as in higher Rockwell) than a knife.

So you can get a fire to anneal it and then grind/file/drill the file but them you need a forge or heat treat it again.

I use a gas forge now successfully and don't have a blower. I used to use a Primus Plumbers Torch but that was with a small forge mabe 7 x 7 x 12 (could have been much smaller and the torch would have been more successfull - even 3 x3?). But both of them had ?????? and refractory stuff(?). Have a look at
http://www.tharwavalleyforge.com/
He has alot of good stuff including how to make a forge and using gas.

[jape]

Be careful if you use house bricks, I know they have been fired but they can blow in a forge. Always wear goggles for every step anyway. Visit a local potter and see if you can pick up a few firebricks from an old kiln, you may get a tuyere that way too. You can use a truck rim with a metal grate in the bottom, I used coke in one of those but it should work with charcoal as well. Never used a hairdryer but have used a car heater blower which is handy as it is 12volt. You can use a torch gas flame but takes a bit of practice. A forge is fun, punching holes for practice, forge welding and so on is more tricky but is also very rewarding, working metal almost as if it is plasticene. You have to hit it harder than you think too! Get an old welders apron.
You can make a forge draft in various ways with a fire sucked along a brick chimney into the charcoal grate to preheat the air etc. and if you play around, start with lead perhaps, you can melt and pour too. If I ever get around to it with all my existing hobbies, bronze casting will be my next experiment.
Check out local blacksmiths and Keith Spence from AKC. Only costs $30 a year for membership which gives many benefits and contacts and materials too. He will know of any knife makers round your way and a lot of them do formal or informal instruction for an enthusiast.
I annealed as Kim does, just heat up and let cool, happens in the forge anyway to some extent but you also get work hardening, best to find out by experimenting, that bit of steel will take a lot of punishment and still come good. Again, as Kim says, straw should be fine for a knife edge.

[DylanK]

Well you guys convinced me! I will aneal the files first then. Im going to the dump tomorow to see what materials i can pick up. They have plenty of tyre rims and i think that will be the easiest and safest way.

When heat treating, could i not just put it into the rim forge and watch until it turns straw coloured then take it out? Also are you ment to quench it after tempering or only when hardening?

Dylan

[kimall]

Good to hear you wont be sorry.
The system goes..........
Get the blank non-magnetic and let it cool a long time.......................
Do your magic on the blade to get it to the knife you want....................
Get it to no-magnetic and dip in old sump oil to reharden it..................let cool and polish
Its now TOO hard and need to be tempred so put it in the oven at mod heat until it goes a nice straw colour.
Let it cool slow and you can do the final polish and sharpen...
Cheers KIM

[DylanK]

Ok very good. Im getting more and more excited lol.
Thanks everyone!

Dylan

[jape]

Im going to the dump tomorow to see what materials i can pick up. They have plenty of tyre rims and i think that will be the easiest and safest way.
Dylan

Go for some small bits of rebar mesh or similar crisscrossed over each other and a truck 'split rim' if you can, use it upside down with the hole for the air-valve as your air-pump inlet, (you can use the spout from an old teapot for a tuyere) and keep away from magnesium rims ...

[DylanK]

What is rebar mesh? That concrete steel?

[jape]

yup, Not the six inch stuff of course, but anything will do with a small mesh that is thick enough not to burn through in the first couple of fires.

[hillbilly WA]

DylanK,
The basic differences between each process are:
Annealing: this is to soften the metal so it can be worked easier, leave it to cool in air, slowly, without quenching it.
Heat treating: This is after the initial grinding, do not grind the bevel to an edge, or you risk cracking or warping the blade edge. Heat it to cherry red in a forge, make sure it isn't magnet (quickly, before the blade cools down), and quench it in oil. You can use vegetable, canola or old motor oil.
Tempering: After heat treating, the blade is sharpened to an edge, and placed in the oven till straw colour (i used 1 hour at 200 degrees C, but everyone will tell you different things) and then left to cool in the oven slowly. Place the blade in some aluminium foil before it goes in the oven. This last process strengthens the blade edge, helping it to take an edge when sharpened and retain an edge; stopping chipping and rolling edges.
I hope laying it out like this helps you to visualise what you need to do a bit better.

Here's a really good thread that might help you out;
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/sho ... hp?t=57990

Good Luck, Carl

[DylanK]

Thanks jape, ill see what they have.

Great link hillbilly but i wonder why he quenches for 3 seconds, takes it out for 2 then back in?

[Coach]

Thanks jape, ill see what they have.

Great link hillbilly but i wonder why he quenches for 3 seconds, takes it out for 2 then back in?

Probably just being artsy fartsy ,you know how Poms are , just dunk it in the oil for 15 seconds and that will quench it enough Thats all I do and they turn out fine .

[hillbilly WA]

I think its actually because the oil he uses is partly flammable (because of the impurities?) so he's just making sure he controls the flame.
Carl

[Steven J]

Once heated to non-magnetic, I cool my knife steels in a bucket of expanded vermiculite. I obtained my vermiculte from the core of a fire door, however you can buy it from nurseries as it is an ingredient in potting mixes and hydroponic growth media. I use a 20 litre bucket, and it can take up to half a day to cool a file to a temperature I can touch. After this process, the file behaves no differently to mild steel in regards to its tooling properties.

Steve