Gilnockie's Linen Thread Source

Message

gilnockie · #1 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:43 pm

Lou

If you want some linen to make a string, let me know how much you need and I will send you some.

I made a string for my first longbow from linen. It was beautiful flemish twist of three skeins, until the timber hitch broke. I twisted it until it was like heavy cord; it took about 4 hours.

But gee it was lovely.

yeoman · #2 Post by **yeoman** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:51 pm

Hey Gilnockie, where'd'ya score linen thread? I've looked for genuine linen thread for ages. Years, in facft, and found none. What's your secret source?

I found a place in NSW that sells hemp thread. Might check that out sometime, too.

Yeoman

Lou · #3 Post by **Lou** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:30 am

Norman,

Thanks a lot for you offer, some natural material for the string will gladden my hart

. I have used hemp before (long time ago (for strings only

)) and I know how good it is. From what I have read and heard the linen is just as good or better (depending on who you talk to). The amount I need would be as for a #60 bow string 68Ã¢â‚¬Â long.

Btw, I saw and shot one of your carbon laminated long bows on Saturday at Moorabbin Archery Club. It is a very nice bow indeed and a great shooter too. With the silencers on the string it was dead quiet and did not have any appreciable hand shock with my POC arrows. I liked the workmanship and the finish and every detail on the bow was perfectly logical. The fact that carbon is hidden beneath the thin wood veneers just adds to the overall natural appearance of the bow. I was actually thinking for a long time of doing exactly the same thing myself but you beat me to it.

I got a response this Friday from Durnford Dart and it all seems to be good re delivery of Tonkin cane to Melbourne, so I am in the process of making the steel plane forms for the arrows and I will soon order some cane. Thanks again for the info and for the string material.

Lou

gilnockie · #4 Post by **gilnockie** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:48 pm

Lou

Thanks for the compliments about the bow. I will measure out some thread and send it to you tomorrow.

Yeoman

If you want a cone of thread of about one pound, the shop where I bought mine has a few. Let me know if you want one and I will get a firm price for you.

I do not know the gauge of the thread but from memory it has a breaking strain of about 15#, as I measured it. Brownell B50 has a BS which is only slightly higher, as I measured it.

erron · #5 Post by **erron** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:48 pm

Norman,

like Yeoman I've been looking for this stuff, glad to know there's a local source

Yeoman,

I'd like some of the thread too, if you want to do a deal, maybe give me a call? Are you thinking of using it for string or backing or both?

Erron

Lou · #6 Post by **Lou** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:01 pm

Norman, Yeoman and Erron,

I found this source of hemp material from Romania that you might be interested in. They sell diferent strength tested twines for reasonable prices. The 48# and 20# ones look very promising for bowstrings. They also sell other hemp products such as webbing and fabric that can be used for traditional craft. I will order some twine.

Here is the link:

http://www.hempsupply.com/twine/index.htm

Lou

Hood · #7 Post by **Hood** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:30 am

Hi guys,

WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING

I found this source of hemp material from Romania that you might be interested in. They sell diferent strength tested twines for reasonable prices. The 48# and 20# ones look very promising for bowstrings. They also sell other hemp products such as webbing and fabric that can be used for traditional craft. I will order some twine.

Well my father-inlaw lives in Romania, not sure if it will be the case but he may be able to get it cheaper then send it over.

But one thing I will worn you all about is the Romanian postal sevice and the frequency of mail going missing. If they even think that a letter or parcel may contain something of value it will go walkies wheather it's coming in or going out of the country.

As my wife and I have found in the past, we lost over $100 dollars American in one posting and other mail that he never got. On top of that it takes an average of two months for a letter to go either way. American dollars are the only other curency other then Romanian and Euro dollars accepted. And corruption and bribary rule over there. So be carful if you decide to import from there.

Just thought I'd better warn you.

Mick
Notquiterhood

erron · #8 Post by **erron** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:01 pm

Ouch

Well, thanks for the heads up anyway, Lou. Good to know there are other sources out there, if I get the time I'll do a search...

Thanks too to you, Mick, sorry you had a bad time with the 'service'

Erron

tracker · #9 Post by **tracker** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:18 pm

The hemp may be from Romania but the link Lou posted is a Yankee website.

So hopefully they've already dealt with the import hassles from Romania.

Mick.

gilnockie · #10 Post by **gilnockie** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:37 pm

I went for a walk to the shop in Hobart where I bought my linen thread. They have the following in stock:
No 18 thread in natural colour (ie a sort of Arnotts Milk Arrowroot colour) $35 for about 1lb. This is a cone about 100mm wide and 100mm diameter.

No 8 linen thread in the same natural colour, $30 for the same quantity. This thread is about the same thickness as B50

No 9 linen thread in black, same quantity, $35.

If anyone wants a cone, let me know and I will buy one and send it to you.

Lou · #11 Post by **Lou** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:24 pm

Mick,
Thanks for the warning. Unfortunately such is the situation in some of the former Eastern Block countries

. But the site that I referred to is in the US (although the hemp is from Romania), so the things should hopefully go smoother. All the stuff that I ordered from the US so far has arrived (apart from the bow that I will have to wait for another nine months)

.

Norman,
Sorry for bothering you but could you send a cone of linen over please? I haven't seen them so I don't know which one of the two natural colour ones would be better thickness for the strings so if you could get one you would go for it would be appreciated. And donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t forget to let me know how I can get you the money

. Thanks a lot!

Lou

gilnockie · #12 Post by **gilnockie** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:03 pm

Lou

I have sent you some no 18 thread. It should arrive in a few days.
If I can get some samples of the no 8 and the no 9 thread I will send you a sample of each. When you have all three in front of you, you can decide which one you want.

Yeoman wants a cone of linen thread and he wants me to bring it up in late October. Dave, if I can get samples of the linen I do not have, I will send you a sample of all three. You can then decide which one you want.

If anyone else wants a sample, I will try to get enough to send to anyone else who wants them.

How about we do this:

For those people who want to purchase a cone, send me a cheque for the price of the cone. If you can wait until late October I will bring the linen with me. If you want it sooner, add $10 to the cheque to cover the cost of a box or post bag, plus postage. I will send you a cheque for the difference if the postage is less than $10, or you can pay me the difference if it is more.

Lou · #13 Post by **Lou** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:45 pm

Norman,

Sounds good! Thanks again and sorry for all the trouble. I can also wait until the end of October so by the time you come to Melbourne I will have plenty of time to decide about the thread.

Would like to see the garden stake arrows in action although cannot guarantee that split cane ones will be done by then.

Lou

gilnockie · #14 Post by **gilnockie** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:01 pm

The shopkeeper gave me 2 metres of the no 8 and no 9 thread today. I can provide samples of the no 18 thread. If anyone is interested, let me know.

Erron, is this worth a separate thread? (No pun intended)

erron · #15 Post by **erron** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:19 pm

Yep, sure is!

Erron

Lou · #16 Post by **Lou** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:31 pm

Norman,
Since you've got the samples I would certainly be interested at having a look at the other two. A couple of inches of each should be enough.
Thanks,
Lou

gilnockie · #17 Post by **gilnockie** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:49 pm

Lou

I will send some samples tomorrow.

gilnockie · #18 Post by **gilnockie** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:21 pm

Lou

Isent a sample of the no 8 and no 9 thread today. It should arrive early next week.

Lou · #19 Post by **Lou** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:57 pm

Thanks Norman,
I'm looking forward to it!
Lou

Lou · #20 Post by **Lou** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:20 am

Norman,

I have received no 18 linen thread you sent me, all 150 feet of it! And it looks great, thank you very much

. It looks like it will make a very nice string.

What sort of wood is the piece you used to wrap the linen on, looks like a leftover of some bow project?

All,

I firstly have to sort out a couple of things before making the string

:

First, I would like to make a three ply Flemish string and each ply should be different colour, but the colours should match/complement the coulour of the bow. I plan to have one thread natural creamy colour, as it is. The second one I will dye rusty red boiling it with red onion skins which is as natural as it gets. My shop Ã¢â‚¬Å“boughttenÃ¢â‚¬Â leather belt has been dyed this way and looks kewl

. Anyone has any ideas what natural colour I can use to dye the third ply? I would like it to be black but it does not have to be. My grandma used to use green walnut skins do dye the wool dark brown or black

but I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t know where I can find some and it is not walnut season anyway. What are other natural colours or dyes, not necessarily black, that I can use?

Second, the linen needs to be waxed. What do you reckon would be a better way of applying the wax, just rubbing it over the surface of the thread or trying to get it in, by applying the heat or some solvent? Would it be a good idea to dip the tread in the molten wax for some time and then remove the excess?

Third, what breaking strength bow string should I make in relation to draw weight?

Lou

Hood · #21 Post by **Hood** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:00 am

Lou

The second one I will dye rusty red boiling it with red onion skins which is as natural as it gets

You could try this with red cabbage instead, I noticed when steamed the water in the bottom pot went BLUE

How about trying mushrooms they go black when cooked, or lawn clippings for green, beatroot juice, mustard powder in hot water, balsamic vinagar, strong coffee:?:

Hey just go shopping mate

line up little glasses on the kitchen bench add things to boiling water from the kettle and cut short peices of string place them in for how ever long and see what happens

Mick
Master chef

Lou · #22 Post by **Lou** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:06 pm

Thanks for the hints Mick but I'd only go for proven methods, like my grandma's

.

As for shopping I could have bought the made up string, just as well, but where is the fun

?

Lou

erron · #23 Post by **erron** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:24 pm

Lou, I have some beeswax I'd be happy to let you have, for greasing the string. Works well, and as natural as the fibre itself

Erron

Lou · #24 Post by **Lou** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:02 pm

Thanks for your offer Erron but I believe I should be OK with the wax

. The candle shop in Chadstone shopping centre that suffocates everyone with their sweet candle smell should have some wax, at least in the form of candles (unless the candle business has all gone synthetic as well)

. I can also buy some wax candles in the church shop so I might benefit from going religious for this reason

. I think one can actually buy bees wax candles at the church shop.

Let me better keep twisting these threads

!

Lou

gilnockie · #25 Post by **gilnockie** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 8:34 pm

Lou

The traditional wax was and is beeswax. Try your local Mitre 10 store.The local M10 store in Hobart sells it.

You have to draw each strand of linen through the wax several times to fully saturate the thread with wax.

Mitre 10 also sell Carnaubra wax as a paste, but I have not used it for strings.

If you use a timber hitch for the bottom loop, (which I do not recommend) you must, repeat must, reinforce the area which will form the hitch.

If you can find a copy, " The Archer's Craft" by Adrian Elliot Hodgkin, describes how to make a three strand Flemish Twist string, with timber hitch. But if you can twist the second loop, I strongly recommend that you do so.

Good luck.

Lou · #26 Post by **Lou** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:19 pm

Norman,

Good to know that there are quite straight forward ways of getting the bees wax

.

The problem with the second loop is to get the length of the string right given it is stretchy at first being twisted. Adding the second loop might take me a couple of goes to get the length right.

Lou

gilnockie · #27 Post by **gilnockie** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:45 pm

Lou,

I read somewhere that linen has about 1% stretch, which is about the same as Fast Flite. Dacron has about 4% stretch. I would not make a short string on the assumption that it will stretch as part of it's settling in.

The only "stretch" which will be noticeable will be the removal of the natural slack from the thread.

Lou · #28 Post by **Lou** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:30 pm

Norman,

Thanks for the other two samples of linen thread that you have sent, I received them yesterday. All threads seem to be suitable for string making although no 18 might be the most suitable being the thinnest and possibly easiest to twist work into primary strands (plies).

I don't have the book that you mentioned but I have some other books including the three volumes of Bowyer's Bible. The Bowyer's bible describes one way of making the loop and does not recommend making the second loop because of the difficulties of achieving the same tightness in all plies. However there are other ways of creating loops as for example by folding the end of the string and reverse twisting it into the loop by working it back into the string. I prefer this way because it is easier this way to achieve the same tightness into all plies. However as the string is twisted it can be stretched to some degree until the twists settle in. This is not to do with the stretch of the material. That is why it is somewhat difficult to get the length of the string with the second loop 100% right first time. Once made, the Flemish string will need to be additionally shortened by twisting after the initial stretch unless it is prestretched before adding the second loop. The shortening is obviously very easy to achieve by adjusting the timber hitch if used instead of second loop.

I will be making the string next weekend. Just need to collect some more onion skins by then

.

Lou

erron · #29 Post by **erron** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:26 pm

Hey Lou, post an inspirational pic when you've done it, yeah?

Erron

gilnockie · #30 Post by **gilnockie** » Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:48 pm

Lou

If you haven't already done so, go to Leatherwall and search for "flemish" and press the "Titles" button.

There seems to be two schools of thought in making Flemish Twist strings. The traditional school braids in a second loop and the primitive school uses a timber hitch. If you use a timber hitch you MUST reinforce that end of the string with extra lengths of thread. Hodgkin in his book suggests as many short lengths as you have strands in the string. They are about 12" long and you offset them so that they form a bunch with tapered tails.

Trust me, you should do this if you want your string to have a reasonable life expectancy.

I tried again to make a flemish string tonight. I was successful at last!. I used it to experiment with carnaubra wax. Don't waste your money. Beeswax is much much better.